They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. JeffS we were writing at the same time. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Would you want to answer that one? He doesnt get rude or nasty about Calvinists in his video, he just disagrees with their views and says why, and explains what he does believe. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. . I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. whats wrong with mess anyway? The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? Sois that what we are saying? We are not monolithic. You are still lost in your finite mind. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. Yes! I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. The list consists of 89 members. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Thinks youre the bees knees. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. The response to an authoritarian and oppressive environment is not to create another one where Calvinism is not tolerated. Thank you, Deb. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? I had found the light. Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. I just want an equal seat at the table. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. What you believe is irrelevant. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. whats so complicated about that? ). A must-read article from Christa Browns blog: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, Im sorry that I was not clear. My point was this idea that God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. ++++++++++++. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. I dont want to do either of those things, and I dont want to argue about it any more. . 1550-1616), who was not. Those who fell outside the box and had to be pushed away However, they are limited, just as we are. As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. I tend to doubt it but who knows. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! He said I was wrong. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp. In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. 14 William Lane Craig Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. This contradictory appeal to both mystery and sound orthodoxy allows then to move the doctrinal yardstick back and forth on any whim or fancy because all they have to do is remind us all that there isnt any real way we can ever know for sure, so we might as well simply agree with them so as not to cause an unpleasant ruckus and create division or risk hurting feelings or whatever other obstacle to real debate they can think up. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. whats wrong with mess anyway? To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. We were just grateful to be around otherChristians. TWW received a comment from one of our nice Calvinist readers. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. I hadnt thought of it that way. Im not sure if Lloyd Legalist is a Calvinista, but they might be related: https://twitter.com/LloydLegalist/status/374295516462739456. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. It is not love to push Calvin. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. I was pointing out that this is an issue that goes beyond Reformed theology. (LogOut/ Neither is TULIP. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. Since Jeff S is a nice Calvinist, may I continue to be a mean one? Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. [1] [2] Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. It comes from theexperience of writing a blog for a long time and hearing the same old, same old. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? My Aunt-in-law is one of the best living examples of Christ I know, I dont find her obsessed with doctrine, but she completely loves her neighbour. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. I dont know. Its like taking someone whos been caged and respecting that they might not feel comfortable in small rooms, or inside buildings at all. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. Jimmy Draper. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. That is how important this is and why I posted my article in the first place. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others, http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. God can do that. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. Hes describing man, not God. I know the WCF does not say it. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. . It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! @ Daisy: In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). One more thing. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. I had no reason not to believe. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. To be fair to Calvin and Darwin, Im not a Bulbeckist. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. etc. Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? That's pretty darn impressive, and many many . @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. Demand they defend their ideas. Nicholas what a great link. Systematic Theology Comparison Chart. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. Maybe Im wrong on that. If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. The Bible? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. One forum in particular, no matter what web site or book title I threw out that pointed out flaws in Calvinism (TULIP/ Reformed same thing to me), the Calvinists would scoff and say each author I brought up could be dismissed because he doesnt understand Calvinism or presents a strawman of Calvinism. even when said authors quoted directly from the books of famous Calvinists. So done with neat little systems with all the ends tucked in, thats not where my hope is anymore. Anyway, I am not talking doctrine here. YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. Tthe book recommend by someone on this thread, Is God to Blame? Is helping me shake off the residual effects of hyper-Calvinism, too. This is as it should be, imo. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. @dee, 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. I know. All are welcome to participate. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. Its all up to God. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. Contemporary Famous Calvinists: D.A. I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. I was open. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Yes, Jeff S. It is important to try and balance the need to have a voice and going too vitriolic. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. We are. Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. How to Resign from a Church If they use their beliefs to beat people over the head, they are obviously jerks. If theyre not slaughtering each other, theyre blowing up each others Mosques so to speak. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Sovereign Grace Ministries They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. We do better together than we do on our own. You personally may not think Cal teaches X, but there are plenty of other Cals who do. The Calvinism Free-For-All (nearly 1,100 comments this morning) post definitely triggered me. In spite of the fact that Sproul and Piper have said such things, i still consider them Christians. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. One section was exploring happiness. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Reformed. You are not a Cavinista. Kentucky. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. Pardon me if I show my bias toward breastfeeding and please indulge me a bit. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. It was populated by extremely insecure . We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. There are many bite marks on my tongue. What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. But are *we* the measure of truth? @ Daisy: We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. I am loving this discussion!!!!!! For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. st machar academy teachers,

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